Random stuff

This is a collection of random ideas and thoughts, which I will probably post when I'm bored or procrastinating.

Friday, May 05, 2006

Money

Someone told me tonight that God wanted Christians to be rich, so that we could give more away.

And I said I didn't agree. Which was quite blunt, for me. But I didn't really see the point of an argument.

But now I'm on my blog where I might be listened to ;-) And so I want to say that, no, God doesn't want to make Christians rich to give more away. To God, it's not about the amount. Remember the rich people at the temple throwing stacks of money into the treasury? And then this widow came along and put in less than 2 cents - it might have been less than one cent - so basically nothing - and Jesus said she'd put in more than the rest of them, because they gave out of their abundance, but she gave all that she had.

And I agree - no matter how much or how little you have, giving 100% is still giving away everything.

Comments?

posted by Noof @ 5/05/2006 11:40:00 pm  

13 Comments:

  • At May 06, 2006 2:58 am, Blogger Mathieu said…

    I hate money!

     

  • At May 06, 2006 1:41 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Prosperity teaching is absolute bollocks and entirely unbiblical. God wants us to give ourselves and whatever we have, he doesn't discriminate or exempt us on the basis of monetary status. Whomever you were speaking to sounds like they've been paying a little too much attention to the montrosity otherwise known as Hillsong and that particularly controversial aspect of their teaching. No offense to whomever it is that made that comment...but its a blatant falsehood and I think proven as much.

     

  • At May 06, 2006 6:36 pm, Blogger Noof said…

    Heh, you've gotta be careful what you say Aaron - some of my sister's best friends are from Hillsong.

     

  • At May 06, 2006 10:03 pm, Blogger Redhillducks said…

    Man, I should be studying! But I'm compelled to respond to this post pronto. I am proud of you for speaking up, Noof. I too would disagree with what the speaker had to say. I agree with what you wrote on your post. That said, I think that in Christian circles, asceticism has an underlying influence. While I don't agree with prosperity preaching, I'm not sure I agree with the rigid practice of asceticism either. I could write a very long post on these topics, but mum has to make a phone call (and I have to get back to study) Anyway, I reckon what you wrote on your post is Biblically correct. Good on ya'!

     

  • At May 08, 2006 10:48 am, Blogger Trevor said…

    I'm really tired and probably not in the best state of mind to try to share different viewpoints, but I'll give it a go nonetheless.

    I think there are two different aspects to giving. There is God's sight of what we give, and there is the worldly side of what we give. The widow may give a penny, and the rich man $10'000, and in God's sight the widow may have given more. But in the world, it's more likely that the $10'000 will send a new missionary overseas, not the penny. It's a similar concept to the equality of all sin. In God's sight, killing a man and lying are the same thing, but in the world, they have differing severities of consequence.

    I don't think God wants everyone to be filthy rich and prosperous, but I do think he would love to use some rich people to accomplish his tasks. It would be more difficult to be rich and be a christian than to be poor and be a christian. God does love to bless people, that's no secret. But unfortunately alot of people interpret those kindof statements as blessings of wealth. I think God would love to see us wealthy, but not if that richness would form a stumbling block for our walk with him.

     

  • At May 08, 2006 11:36 am, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Yes..apologies for any comments that specifically vilified anyone or any church in particularly, I should be somewhat more tactful.

     

  • At May 08, 2006 10:17 pm, Blogger SuperTiph said…

    "...they've been paying a little too much attention to the montrosity otherwise known as Hillsong and that particularly controversial aspect of their teaching."
    - Courtesy of Aaron

    Allow me to set a couple of records straight. I've been to 2 Hillsong Conferences and numerous Hillsong church services, and I will tell you what I have picked up from the teaching I personally have heard. If you have been there and interperate things differently, that's okay. But this is what I know, so I'm going to try and clear the air a little on some hazy subjects.

    Firstly, I'll tackle the issue of tithing at Hillsong. They encourage you to give everything you can give and not hold back if you have something extra. The majority of the people in Hillsong are from the North Western region of Sydney, which is relatively affluent. The Pastors and speakers encourage you give everything you can give so that you and the church can flourish. They do not say, "The more money you put in to the church the better spot you will get in heaven" or anything like that. They just want you to be obedient, and God DOES call us to give some of our livelihood to Him. There are people in this church who would have $1000 sitting in the bank for no real reason, and the church encourages them to give it to God and allow Him to use it rather than letting it sit in the bank. Not exactly I bad idea, I don't think.

    Secondly, their CDs and books and the like are resources for churches all over the world. There are churches that would not have music if they didn't own a few Hillsong CDs. Bobbie and Brian Housten make their living from their books. They take no wages from the church. So being authors is their income. Their resources are sold purely as resources. They sell them to equip churches and ministries. They sell CDs at prices that cover costs and allow them to just begin planning for the next one. This church does massive outreach, and that just can't happen with decent amounts of money. And they certainly aren't wasting it. The church is growing at a rapid rate. In 7 Hills alone there are 5 packed services each Sunday, often with overflow. They're growing so rapidly there is starting to be a logistics problem.

    So these are my own observations, but I have made these first hand and will stick to them until I see for myself better evidence to believe otherwise.

     

  • At May 10, 2006 11:57 am, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Arrgh! I hate that my post just vanished because it didn't post and the session timed out! Arrgh!

    supertiph added...
    "Bobbie and Brian Housten make their living from their books. They take no wages from the church. So being authors is their income."

    My $0.02 cents...
    Not so - Brian and Bobbie are the only employees of a company employed by Hillsong to provide "management and pastoral services" - so they get paid for doing what they do, even indirectly.

    I was also going to rabbit on about how much money Hillsongs make from their albums as they are exempt from all kinds of taxes in selling their CD's, as they are "worship resources". More $$$ in their pockets to plan for the next one.

    My addition to this thread...
    prosperity doctrine will not ever further the kingdom of God (camel through the eye of a needle, anyone?).

     

  • At May 10, 2006 11:58 am, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    One more thing supertiph added...
    "So these are my own observations, but I have made these first hand and will stick to them until I see for myself better evidence to believe otherwise."

    Better are you who have believed and not seen... JC.

     

  • At May 11, 2006 8:45 am, Blogger Luke said…

    It's true. Most Hillsong cd's sell at approx $30. To cover costs, considering CD's at cost sell at maybe $10 (including distribution) and that Hillsong would have to pay less than that due to their cd's being a 'worship resource', you can see that there is no way that they would not be able to make a profit.

    I'm not saying Hillsong doesn't do a great job - I for one think that although prosperity teaching is crap, but in this day and age, some personality types and portions of society would not be able to be reached without their resources (stadium, tv, crowd effect etc). If anyone's ever been to Hillsong or a really large church, you'll know what I mean - to have a stadium full of people worshipping intensely to relatively good music is a powerful experience.

    So therein lies the rub. I say although it's easy to take potshots at Hillsong, we should refrain from making broad generalisations about it - we cannot say it is completely evil or completely good. It IS possible to bible bash christians as well. Without taking this situation with a bit of grace we'll end up forming a barrier to Hillsong in our mind - and potentially a barrier to one of the greatest forces for good in our generation. What they do with their money is their business, and I would have thought that to handle this situation gracefully would be to let them answer for themselves.

    So therefore please point your browser towards:

    http://www2.hillsong.com/media/default.asp?pid=855

    http://www2.hillsong.com/media/default.asp?pid=927&hidetitle=yes

    Or any of the relevant Media Responses there.

    -Luke

     

  • At May 11, 2006 8:58 am, Blogger Luke said…

    By the way, my blog's kind of starting back up :)

    WV: spuzh

     

  • At May 11, 2006 5:45 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Yes..I think it isn't right to blatantly talk about something being evil or wrong in its entirety, my tongue was somewhat in my cheek when I labelled them a "monstrosity". However, I think Hillsong being in the position they are in, should be a responsible example in what they do with their money. I'm sorry, but you don't incur two seperate federal government investigations on your finance management and appropriation of government funding because you're doing everything by the book. And no it isn't some conspiracy against christian organisations, to claim that is entirely bogus, naive and unfounded. My main point is, that of course Hillsong when speaking for themselves through their response and media releases are always going to put a positive spin on things and perhaps even invoke some sort of misguided notion of christian unity in order to throw off suspicion of something smelling a bit iffy there. Hence why I don't trust their own responses on their website and will continue to maintain my suspicion in regards to their handling of finance and appropriation of wealth. Please keep in mind I don't intend to attack the teaching of the church or the community work that it does, however as Christians we're supposed to be beyond reproach, in particular an organisation that is as visible as Hillsong. I hope I'm not offending anyone too greatly, I just think things need to be questioned and not just accepted blindly because a pretty and well worded press release says so. I'm sure Enron and HIH's releases sounded just as nice around the time of their respective troubles.

     

  • At May 12, 2006 12:49 pm, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Never trust a press release for the truth. It's always spin...

     

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